The Definition of Data Driven Marketing Excellence

With Keynote speaker: Jay Baer

7th-generation entrepreneur and author of 6 best-selling books on customer experience and digital marketing.


Psst down here...

We were joined by industry legend Jay Baer for a live Q&A, plus our expert panel, as we explored the ingredients to data driven marketing excellence.

Here's what we unpacked:
  • Orchestrating omnichannel programmes
  • Driving personalisation at scale
  • Unlocking real time marketing
  • Crafting beautiful digital experiences
  • Marketing stack tools to drive data driven marketing

Video transcript

Carlos Doughty 1:36 Pen and paper, you might want to grab one now if you're taking notes. We've got some fantastic insights coming from him. And As Jay mentioned, beyond that we have our amazing sponsors, who will be making this possible which is find interesting data. That's a massive thank you to them. Please support us by supporting them. Without that it would be possible to have such amazing speakers join us. But let's get down to business. Let's dive straight into the questions everyone has. So, first and foremost, on the hitless, we had Jay talked to us about data driven marketing excellence. What does that look like for you?

Jay Baer 2:12 Now when going forward is literally every difference between successful marketing and under deceptively you but we've been talking about one to one month long as I've been in business like before we even have the internet. And now of course we have technology and the capability thanks to companies like our sponsors, allow us to use data to do what consumers and customers actually want, which is deliver marketing that is radically relevant. See, Carlos. The thing about this is that every marketer in the world including me, and including you and including everybody who's joining us, We all tell ourselves the same lie. And the lie that we tell ourselves is that our customers or prospective customers are just too busy. They're too busy to come to the dial in they're too busy to read the white paper. They're too busy to look at the infographic or listen to the podcast or watch the video or go to the absolute rubbish. It's not good at all. If somebody tells you they're too busy, what they really mean but they typically won't say this because what they really mean is that what you're giving is not relevant to them. It's not that they don't have it's that what you are putting in front of them is not worth their time. And the antidote to that is and will always be specificity and personalization. Relevance is the killer app. And the only way you create additional relevance and specificity is with data. You can't do it. Just magically you have to know more about your customer and prospect and then you know, to create communication and marketing programmes that they feel like are created just for them.

Carlos Doughty 4:18 Absolutely times not free. Right. And the attention economy is the most challenging battlefields to try and I think sometimes people forget for years of free, there was a time that value exchange really is a value exchange, right? Is it really worth it? And especially in this world with so much content is freely available to us, trying to kind of find the things that's worth my time and attention is is the difference. It really is and like you say data underpins that allows us to unlock and really identify what is worth. Let's dive into the next one. Right? What do you consider the most challenging element to the market? Is it the people the process the data, the technology, something else?

Jay Baer 5:08 It's probably data only because I think largely today, we are surrounded by data but starved for insights that there's a lot of research to back that almost all marketers globally feel like they've got enough data or on the way to have enough data. But it's not about big data. Big data is not the goal. The goal is standing. So we've got to take the data that is gathered or held or analysed by sponsors among others, and figure out how to apply it in a way that is additive to the customer experience and certainly with third party data for tail faster and faster with more and more places. This process of data gathering and data analysis, and essentially data application becomes more and more important. But But I feel like in a lot of cases, we were not really understanding what it is right. So data by itself has no value. None. It's just a spreadsheet. It's what does the data tell you? That helps but then what do you actually stop, start for change in your company as a result of the data? That's where you actually benefit. I think sometimes we get seduced by the presence of data, and we lose sight of the need to focus on the application

Carlos Doughty 6:44 is a really good way to think and I don't have any stats, but clearly we're we as marketers have more data than we've ever had before. There's a tidal wave of data. It's not we need more of it. It's so easy to make sense of it. And there's there's lots of ways to make sense right? You've got from hygiene to aggregation. So then when you have that lovely point right there was about noon. So even if you have even if you have an organising clean level, then how do you make sense of it in a meaningful way that you can take action from decisioning piece is really powerful.

Jay Baer 7:17 And I would just say as a piece of advice for everybody. I'm sure most of us create some kind of reports or some kind of people or somebody else in ownership. One of the rules that I've had in my consulting business for a long, long time now is never ever, ever create a distributor Report. Here are the behaviour changes that we are instituting as a result of this data. You give somebody a report that doesn't have conclusions and an actual next step actions. All you're doing in many cases is confusing somebody because they look at the data. They're like, cool. Like it doesn't it doesn't have any actual real world value. So you got to interpret for people and then say, consequently, we're gonna start doing this or stop doing this or change this.

Carlos Doughty 8:25 In my career I used to produce analytics. On a weekly basis I slice and dice the business like revenue growth by by audience by product by everything you can think of, and then attach this beautiful spreadsheet below. Send that to entire management team and we're doing it constantly never really gotten the data and it's just somebody went stopped sending the spreadsheet, just add some bullet points. And I still did the same amount of work but the time to go here's what you need to know is is literally the change or the action from the Insights is is literally changing. How you

Jay Baer 8:59 if there was a rule there was a rule that we can pass that says that all Analytics reports in all organisations can only be one page long. We would be manifestly because we're understanding what's important and critical and meaningful, as opposed to look at all sometimes

Carlos Doughty 9:30 fiction but the VM is a one page memo before. I've not had it verified but it does seem to make sense. You have a one page right let's switch to the next one. And it's something a lot of people

Jay Baer 10:05 still in a lot of organisation has data or data lakes that are not channelling not data from social programme you get data from email programme, get data from your web programme, but even have separate data from your mobile programme. And those collections of information are held in a vertical capacity right so they don't talk to one another. They don't operate horizontally across the business. And that gave me a chance. So what I would like to see is when we're working on these kinds of programmes, to instead of creating customer journey maps, that then say, well, what if the customer changes? We should build customer journey maps that assume that all customers are changing. And then figure out what is the minimum of the minimum data we have access to that actually can be available on every right so we're trying to route the experience across the chain. You'd like Unknown Speaker 11:30 to take the data

Jay Baer 11:33 agnostic, but that is still a scenario that a lot of organisations do not find themselves in. So yet similarity and consistency in tubers in an omni channel world, but that will never actually happen until your data is available. In those same channels.

Carlos Doughty 12:01 It can't be contextualised, because if you don't have that full understanding of what action has taken place across any other channel, you end up operating in kind of siloed multi channel type approach. Yeah. And that's so frustrating to consumers, right. It's Jay Baer 12:15 so frustrating. Yeah, and we actually know too much right? Like we know how hard the thing I just said is for enterprise firms like it's not easy to to have that kind of data consistency across all channels. Like it's, you know, it's a slog, right but consumers are like, Why Why do you think I need choose in this size when I bought shoes this other size? Three weeks ago on your website, like they just don't understand. And why are you so dumb, right? It just, it creates a lot of frustration and poor customer experiences.

Carlos Doughty 12:52 Yeah, customer expectations are higher than ever. I think it's almost I think of it like sort of layers. I mentioned that data layer. The next bar, which intelligent decisioning you then have all this amazing content and different creative assets on the right channel, and then we have 10 channels. It's understanding that we know better than most and ain't easy. It's tough Yeah. Because we haven't gone to what's next

Jay Baer 14:22 was not mentioned in the question. core messages about those types of events was noted in the question, but I would say at least in the US, that's where businesses go by no means a US Yeah, yes. That is changing in a little bit. There's a lot of still in text. Here. I would also argue that the new breed of conversation conversation the devils in the details save me a lot of time, as opposed to having to phone up or even send an email or of course other than circumstances. This is actually worse. This is This is foolishness. So so the technology but you've got to programme it the way that it actually helps us. And then the last one, I would say

Carlos is probably social commerce. Not necessarily but but I do some work with emplify. Frog in the ability to sell services directly inside a social media application, whether it's Instagram or Tiktok or meta etc. We're just scratching the surface there. And it solves a lot of conversion optimization challenges because the entire system and the entire purchase and data collection happens inside Instagram for example. So you never get to the website at all. So you don't have as many points of failure. I think that's got some potential as well. Obviously not for everybody you're not going to probably sell legal services or recognise execute bank in the UK company like an open checking accounts on Instagram directly but maybe something Unknown Speaker 16:47 Yeah, yeah, I think social

Jay Baer 16:53 frictionless experience Unknown Speaker 16:56 super everything. To do that, I don't say

Jay Baer 17:07 six years more meta Facebook at the time that their plan was to turn WhatsApp into writing add all the Congress layers and somebody has not really been able to stitch it. All together. Yet, but I think that's still business. Maybe no. I can't successfully compete against WeChat. It's a super app in the real world, but maybe we can outflank them in the virtual avatar universe. Maybe we'll be the best fit

Carlos Doughty 17:44 training you well. I mean, only one I would throw in there. It's not new. But I think sometimes it's important to look better, possibly some channels less cluttered. And I think I think direct mail could be one of those opportunities around direct mail going back, delivering the personalization, physical thing where people

Jay Baer 18:03 Yeah, it's on the b2b side, incredibly impactful. Companies like to dosa and PFL that are doing programmatic ABM driven, direct mail and interspersing kind of social media. Act touches with highly customised dimensional mail really, really effective, gaining tonnes of traction in the b2b space. Obviously will work for b2c as well. A lot of times you're reaching you're trying to reach more customers and b2c, so you got to be a little thoughtful about what is the actual piece of mail costing you individual piece level, my actual background. I didn't know this, but I started indirectly. That was my original career as a direct mail specialist way back in the day. And so I'm a huge proponent, especially as you said, this kind of counter programming, right if everything's online, then you do something offline and it stands out correspondingly. And I would argue it's easier because people's addresses every working from home you don't have their home address in the database, you want to use data companies zoominfo DemandBase, whatever. And, and they're like, Well, I'm sending this to the office that no one's been in for 18 months. I hope I don't send him ice cream. So I think we're gonna see what happens but I couldn't agree more. I think you're you're absolutely bang on that that smart direct mail. It actually stands out. So funny, right because it was left for dead by the roadside.

Carlos Doughty 19:40 Actually, sorry, I will add one final one, which is QR codes, I think is the other thing because of the pandemic. We've started to use them again, instead of bridge between physical and digital. Being able to connect those experiences

Jay Baer 19:51 another interesting, hilarious right another one that was that was almost a meme. It was my good friend Scott Stratton wrote a book called Why QR codes kill kittens. Literally, the whole idea of the book is that QR codes are inherently dumb, and ridiculous and just put the URL there. And then the pandemic comes and everybody gets rid of menus and restaurants and everything else and all of a sudden it's just like this global insurgents. It's extraordinary. Never never saw it coming. And now everybody sees a lot of use cases. Now. I will tell you, we are starting to see at least in the United States, a bit of a pendulum swing back towards QR codes for everything and and sometimes that's just crazy, right? I was on a long cross country. Driving trip last month. It's a lot of country to drive to as many of you know. And I saw more than one billboard alongside an interstate with a QR code and I'm like, Look, nobody, nobody can be driving at that speed, grab their phone and hit the QR code before you go by like it's not possible. This is ridiculous. Yes, huge potential now and everybody is comfortable with their most people are comfortable to go even my mom, but it's not a it's not a magic bullet.

Carlos Doughty 21:13 And it goes back to what we've said before ultimately, what's the data and the data depending? What's the orchestration? What's the intelligence of decisioning the right content, the right creative, the channel is going to be as good as the things that come before that. Jay Baer 21:28 Absolutely. Absolutely.

Carlos Doughty 21:30 We've got more of you. When When does personalization go too far? And how can you one know that you've gone too far in to measure I don't know if the measure is sort of measure the creepy scale. At what point is it creepy?

Jay Baer 21:47 I think we've all experienced it in in giving prevalence of third party data and if we see a lot of that right. How do they know that too, right? are wondering like Hmm, interesting. I think some of that grievance will fade away because we will have a little bit more visibility as individual consumers. So I think some of the creepy factor will be reduced just by the nature of kind of where the direction the direction the industry it's headed. But here's what I tried to do. I answer the question two ways. First, in my organisation, I've always used what we call the mom and the Mom Test goes, if you're trying to make a business decision, and you're wondering whether your consumers or potential customers will find it inappropriate or or creepy or whatever negative adjectives you want to put in just ask yourself, very soberly. Would my mother who presumably loves me unconditionally, finds this awkward? And if the answer is even remotely, yes, you have the answer. Right. So So that's I I love this question, but I somewhat take objective. Miko is the real experience. It's to like if you if you are wondering whether or not it's from a test standpoint, and again, this relies on CPS and marketing automation and a lot of other things that help of course, the best thing to do would be great and tested right and then just get a sense of get a sense of downstream distribution behaviour. Although, generally speaking, you won't discover that people find it creepy based only on their cliques people because when they start working, you know why you almost have to do more qualitative research, survey work or intercepts, that kind of thing, focus groups, etc, to ferret that out. So it can be a little bit hard to measure the creepy factor in a way that is

Carlos Doughty 24:23 understood. I'm going to say that way the mum tests I'm going to use this right we've got somewhat of a silver bullet question here. What is the most impactful change marketers can make? Etc strategy

Jay Baer 24:40 as well, is going to change radically 75% of data centre massive not notching that are out there about 4% of UK consumers say the banks the bank that they use, supported their own beliefs about the world. These are adequate unsinkable. And we're helping clients is that over the next 18 to 24 months, the businesses that will succeed disproportionately in every category are the businesses understand their customers. Because if you're working with personas, customer journey maps and customer research, anything that's that's qualitative that you gathered in 2020 or earlier, you are lying. Because what you think, you know, allow your customers is probably no longer cast, which is why CDP's and other data stores and data lakes and things along those lines are so critical now because they're actually modelling to gather data based on behaviour not not attitudes that you've gathered in a survey that's no longer valid. So customer understanding is actually the key. So if somebody is looking to really succeed this year, what I would tell them is invest in customer understanding, invest in greater data collection and greater data analysis, invest in survey work, redo your personas, redo your customer journey maps, that entire layer of understanding will will be a key to your success. This year, probably next year.

Carlos Doughty 26:54 untested. Yeah, I think to your point there. If you aren't doing that work properly, and you do have the right technology in place, it's going to be adaptive, right? Because it's going to work with the latest behaviour. Ideally goes right as far as real time to really understand and recreating that journey based on what it's finding out on a daily basis. right we've got one final question for you, which is the what do you think is the number one thing that somebody need to do to thrive? strategy

Jay Baer 27:38 so often we, we gather the data and then say what can we make with this? Right? It's like buying the Lego set without plans. It just got like a giant box of different sizes and different colours like hey, can I make a crocodile out of this instead? And the better approach is to work on birds and say, Well, what are we trying to do? Right? How can we create a seamless experience? How can we improve conversion rate, how can we improve retention rate how can we reduce call handling time or whatever the circumstances are? Figure out what the actual objective is first, and then figure out what data is necessary to make that happen. But too often, in practice the opposite you're like, well, we've got all this information. The recipes can calm down, taking but if you say, well, in order to do that thing when we want to do we have to note this, how are we going to know this? Who do we call the notes, how do we gather this you actually get much better outcomes? So just

Carlos Doughty 28:46 to test it, yeah, reverse engineer. And it's really funny to say that just yesterday, I was marking coursework for one of our programmes around essential mountain technology. And that was exactly the point it was like start with the business goals and the outcomes and then reverse engineer to what technology initiatives align to deliverable can be really achieved because you've

Jay Baer 29:14 got companies where one part of the organisation is responsible for that goal in the objective or the organisation is responsible for data right and then it's like, how come this didn't work? Well, it's not even the same key to get everybody around the same table, either physically or metaphorically. And say, alright, let's let's work together on this as opposed to

Carlos Doughty 29:41 Hey, we are all out of time. And I really appreciate your time. Thank you so much. You say well, but don't worry for those listening. We've got more for you with our expert panel. Coming up, just a moments book coming into some witnesses we will be announcing in the next 24 hours. So thanks very much, Joe. Wright Joining me now. No pressure, but I'm gonna introduce you all as the expert panel. So we've got a fantastic panel to continue after. We've got more great questions, which we're going to delve into. But first and foremost, let me introduce a bit. We have Andrew Steventon, marketing director at trace data. Andrew, welcome. Very much be here. Next up, we have Alexander Jensen's Sales Director PMEA at finder Unknown Speaker 30:48 and let's be here.

Carlos Doughty 30:51 Finally, but not least, we have set now can do great head of marketing as recognised but we've got a lot of questions. So I'm going to start just firing these out. And we're going to hit you first. But he was one of the questions. We've got the build up. How do you best customers content for every stage of the consumer? Unknown Speaker 31:22 For me, as a customer Think content as well, I mean, but let's also look at the messaging and less of the channel business sense for other

Andrew Stephenson 31:58 students, you know how they interact with our friends and it gives us I guess, channels to stay on as you excel then I think content basic customer needs to speak. Don't go buying a t shirt. When when a consumer is considering the product, they look at who they trusted. Will it do the job is quality with the fit well will it wash out after two washes all this funny stuff they have questions. He isn't testimonials. So very important content. He wants to your patients product details earlier. He want to make the world a better place and more and more time. As Jay Baer says conscious somewhere they put their business I guess they bought the t shirt. You know they need to feel valued and rewarded. They also suffer from as far as Unknown Speaker 33:23 a slight audience is worth it. So again approaches what this will return policy programmes another. That's how I guess where the person is. I guess it's real estate focused on the customer. Goes on stages. So I'd say initial purchase. Businesses are getting the next including an offer to return a repurchase but it's balanced and all the other things report. Soon we'll Andrew Stephenson 34:21 see and then yeah, if you want to discount discount or with a sponsor. Or whatever it is. Really make sure it's bought by the same designer in the same price bracket. To make make sure the best customer content entity was directly from the needs of the customer at that point in time.

Carlos Doughty 34:52 That's really, really, really great. I particularly like the point of kind of channel affinity and understanding that I suppose from what I'm hearing there, you almost got this multitude of so many different journeys and so many different ways to navigate to SSA is a CDP expert, its decision engine at the heart from a CDP that's doing this. Andrew Stephenson 35:13 I think so. I think I'd be fired for saying no, essentially, for me it is the data drives it that's how we that's how we understand you know, how they interacting with a brand. We have so much digital footprints. Let's let's harness them and use them for good deliver that relevance deliver that relevancy. Be relevant, if you know what that was your customers.

Carlos Doughty 35:40 Thank you, right and Xander, we don't want view. Let's talk tools, tools. What tools do you think are key to enabling data driven marketing concerns? Alexander Janssens 35:55 In order to like data free marketing is of course all about the data. But ultimately, that data is being used to create an end product that goes to market and that end products is really powerful. So I think in terms of the tools like in terms of basically means that as a company, you need to be able to spread really personalised on that specific skill. And with realisation I mean, only specifically for a specific target audience based on specific needs, but also being able to deliver it in the right size and the right format at the right channel. So I think that's what companies need to say need to do. Really specifically, but and then also organise and deliver and so for what we're seeing also with our customers is that, I mean, they're using and they need technology to be able to produce content at scale, really segmented a specific order based on those data points. And then also, they need to be organised and they need to be able to deliver that content to all these downstream systems, like your CMS like your beam, like your social tools like your marketing automation that requires an entire stack. I think the main thing is that you're already creation organisation and distributing the content.

Carlos Doughty 37:30 Yeah, as you're saying, I could just imagine sort of chopping this up into going, I've got my data, it's collected, it's organised. I now need to activate where and how do I activate my CMS my damn way of automation, all the different parts but you're right though. I suppose sometimes when people who have data driven excellence, they might go the data part, but actually, it's the data part of what you do with the data to the activation that comes afterwards from that data that is really enabling excellence Jay Baer 37:57 as well. Unknown Speaker 37:58 Yeah, exactly.

Carlos Doughty 38:01 So now, let's throw on your way. What is your advice to marketers trying to get stakeholders to buy into adopting a more data Unknown Speaker 38:10 driven approach?

Carlos Doughty 38:13 I haven't got any more details about which company here or what type of organisation but we may all at some point works in those companies where it's slightly more challenging to get by. What's your advice it? Yeah,

Sapna Kandukuri 38:27 absolutely. I think with any marketing initiative, there are three areas I definitely look at when I have to talk to stakeholders. One is education. You need to educate them. Some of them come from an area and I can tell you definitely and recognise. I've had stakeholders who have come in from an area where they think marketing is just colours. You know, education is a huge job and you have to spend a lot of time with them. Trying to educate them to tell him telling them about the effectiveness of marketing, and how marketing plays a more important role in the world today, and how customer behaviours have changed what channels exist. Having done this piece it's more about, you know, sharing competitive athletes and they use VLOOKUP. You know, if you come back, let's say, x mindset have done this, and this is what the revenue was, or this is what the result of that initiative was. They suddenly are very, very engaged. So competitor updates really work very well. And I tell you, what, suppliers that you're looking at a lot of texture information, they will not name names, but there are always examples to say X, Y, and Zed is this and that's why because obviously the supplier you're looking at wants to show that this the initiatives that they worked on, have been successful. That's why they're sharing that information. And that can go a long, long way in helping a stakeholder understand why you want to push it. The other thing I would say is sharing examples from other industries, what else is going on? Generally, because the product touches this customer, but those products, other products and also touch the same customer, and what are those other industries? So that's quite important as well. So I look at all of the news, and I look at a project then from a business perspective, rather than from a data perspective. It's a it's a data project, I understand. But look at the business goals first. And when talking about stakeholder, I would say talk to them about how their business goals will be achieved, as opposed to what the data will bring. If you see what I mean. So changing the rhetoric a little bit goes a

Carlos Doughty 40:50 long way. I think that all of those are sound that last one really stuck with me know the translation into terms I mean, ultimate terms they care about or understand. If you get into my new shy detail and specificity and anything technical, you might lose somebody else's and the compared to this yeah, I've definitely got to say I've worked in size brokers and had to go to the board because particular drastic changes in digital. And yeah, the minute you're What an interesting actually one was none of our competitors doing this. Here is an opportunity. Here's a gaping hole it's your point of looking to other industries, but look at this industry over there, which isn't so distant from us, yet. Really sound advice. Thank you, Andrew, we're back at you. slightly similar questions what we've got earlier that has the line between creepy and non creepy data or marketing messages moved in the last few years. We started we've started to behave we were recognising creepy and staying away or we. will know

Andrew Stephenson 42:01 today enable, I guess the best most tailored and rather than journey data to extract more data and more personal I guess the question is around whether the stop wasting slide cross and this box not all of us here and everybody watching and listening. It's about how we use it. I think the Mom Test or the mock test is really paid. So it has to do with relevance, you know, is the customer paramount in our decision to use this data is whatever we are using this data before in the interest of so let's so then I think we can start to use data to try to like I said earlier that I think I think the term creepy. It's not a nice number. It's also quite subjective. And it means different things to different people. And I think it's driven by circumstance and relevance so for example, tick tock they've got insane algorithm average and they said they took around two hours to work on some of that. appear in the same room. I'd ask everybody listening and watching to put your hand up if you've ever picked up tickets and five minutes and then lost an hour and they're like, What is that time? I'll never get that back. So all it does. So it's essentially it's taking a real time behaviours, what we previously liked training using visual covered serves them up to make us the reward is stuck. For those more circle. Ultimately, it's this symbiotic relationship where we swap our data in return for videos. But here in this example, it's needs of me because on tick tock so I think in that kind of situation conversely, where's this where there is a disconnect with the customer? Think that's when jobs and that's when people will question. It's very often cited example. It's just online advertising generally, once a week on every channel everywhere you go. They're trying to lead you down to 100. Mil eventually relented by just turn the ads on right and that bet that is people so I argue that that last example that uses a lot less data than the desktop, but Unknown Speaker 45:05 it's a lot less aligned to what I kind of asked a bit about what has changed I think Andrew Stephenson 45:16 me everyone is more aware of that data being 235 years ago. So I think the expectations have changed. So whilst I think was acceptable for understanding in terms of its data the way that it doesn't have a route to another thing. More data, no landscape has changed, etc. We just need the customer

Carlos Doughty 45:55 value exchange. And the Tick Tock itself was great. I think it was definitely a time when I think Facebook had a strong algorithm and people liked it and they got information and were happy with the exchange. And over time that algorithm changed. A lot of advertising flooded. Really a case over to you and organisation deliver exceptional. Alexander Janssens 46:35 Being courageous. Doing great. So I think boys look at companies that are operating in highly competitive landscapes, because that's where you really need to stand out. And one of one of our customers is our AirFrance KLM they operate in an airline industry. The airline industry is highly competitive market of course. So in order to stand out, what they do is they create highly personalised and be personalised but they choose highly optimised email campaigns for a specific destination as well it's all there whether that means that speeds is like loading times is close to zero. Speed is fantastic. That means SEO ranking goes up. That means each audition can sell more tickets. I think and that's just one example. But I think it's really interesting to look at the match tool content to the right places. Formatting so that they basically reduce PageSpeed go faster mortgage. Those are the ones that are read receive. Like, basically in the FinTech industry as well. You see this a lot like a lot of our customers in the FinTech industry, like the hyper growth FinTech companies. These are companies that are born in the the 21st century so they basically don't have the legacy of traditional marketing but they're actually already born and something I can probably relate to this, born into creating a digital experience and being able to deliver that digital experience across channels cross border campaigns across mobile apps, that when you see an ad, all consistent, no loading times, like and that's, I think, really, really, really powerful. And there's technologies that can help to serve these assets in the most optimal way. So I think those are good examples. Yeah.

Carlos Doughty 48:55 Yeah. Interesting. To look at things of industry and it's, it's impressive, obviously, that there are some real world questions. Certainly. What about you? Let's talk more about what does data driven marketing look like? And

Sapna Kandukuri 49:18 so for us, Carlos recognised like is is really, really new at the moment. So I've been lucky. I'm actually Unknown Speaker 49:26 yeah. Strategy is very practical improving customer retention and informing the future path to the firm data driven strategies to these three. And these should come together via Specific, measurable goals. I think Jay mentioned that as well. You know, long term, short term, and the goals that inform the actions of each group, each department

Sapna Kandukuri 50:22 and they work towards a specific initiatives. That's how the whole thing comes to. For me, it starts with goals. What are we looking to get out of data? Why do we want to collect data? And those are three things I've mentioned. Now? Data driven marketing strategy for me, then, immediately if my data is correct, and if my propositions are out there in the market, I'm beginning to understand then I become the person who is going to make content relevant for my prospects and clients and beyond offering so because I made me a business, and maybe a property investor, but I need I don't really know that I would recognise me alone. So it might take a conference. It's such a free content relevant to my business, and that's personalised in this question. How much do you owe the sum of some of the challenges? But then those will be resolved, which are now what data driven strategies? What what a data driven marketing strategy will do is drive leadership. Customer Engagement and advocacy advocacy automatically goes up. If I'm served with relevant content and I know you know, these guys know me. They make me feel important, and they're going to serve me with whatever my business wants. Next. I want to have my data driven strategy tailored in such a way that the business doesn't even know this is coming. They have a need, but we know already and that's where I want to serve from. So I think that's that's where an ideal strategy should be.

Carlos Doughty 52:17 So it's like the next best content ready to go. Because you you focus on the customer pieces. As you mentioned, they're focusing on advocacy. And I think sometimes, you see, it's too easy to focus on acquisition and not about the retention efficacy and that as a means also your business as well. Fantastic. Absolutely. But I haven't got any stats to this effect, but certainly what I saw here and seeing totally is a much stronger tilt towards acquisition than the retention efficacy side of things. So it's always refreshing when good marketers focus on that. Right, we are back around to you, Andrew. And actually, we're talking about emphasise hambourg important is it to develop a customer advocacy programme in terms of your overall market strategy. What impact have you seen? We're just going to say it's

Andrew Stephenson 53:21 more so now than ever. To find something from scratch, inherit some rules in place and move it from acquisition to start with a strong position and again, using content to progress. meaningful content for your consumer segments episode. Overall, Unknown Speaker 53:46 yeah, yeah. live and die by the sword is reviews and recommendations.

Andrew Stephenson 54:02 And if you think about why this is and what's driving it, so 10 years ago, we used to buy this stuff. It's, you go into a shop, pick it, feel it, see it, smell it, but I really Unknown Speaker 54:15 really like this so. Five years ago, I was working on eBay it was Louis and I saw that someone had bought three and a half 1000. TV, on their mobile devices.

Andrew Stephenson 54:45 And then kind of fast forward to last year in lockdown in the flesh, that we just heard David Porter has just rented six or trade bonds and apartment in Paris right without even seeing it and Unknown Speaker 55:01 kind of changing

Andrew Stephenson 55:02 and also what is the replacement? Not seeing things because it is Unknown Speaker 55:09 not the right fit. I guess I'm gonna be word of mouth. 6005 star reviews so the review in a consumer voice in their opinion is a kind of a direct measure of our customers.

Andrew Stephenson 55:38 So it makes sense that we do what we can to ensure that the best right content to the right life stage product next, and that means putting them at the forefront of all this existing presidents happy but then they'll also kind of give you an example from service or public may not have heard of that there are virtual reality games published. They use data driven these data and Insight and Analytics to make writing news dense I think. Ultimately people enjoyed the game because they converted data sets for longer, you know, this kind of thing raises its head to say that another client of ours there. It's they had a really good programme, but it was only offline. And they needed to get an online kind of digital version. And then, a few years ago, they implemented the CVP and they you know, they deliver personalised messaging searching scores and getting expert advice and views and how to apply and kind of all the content that you need when you're looking at the basics of a competency profitability engine, and then this kind of new revamped segmentation and they were able to increase revenue for a loyalty member they had revenues and something like 35 or 40% growth in net income. So

Carlos Doughty 57:57 proof of the pudding. Yeah, absolutely. I love that the main point that jumped out to me there was on the flip side, there's no hiding right. If your production experience is great, also, it's gonna it's gonna go the other way for you. Unknown Speaker 58:10 Yeah, people vote with their feet at their reviews.

Carlos Doughty 58:13 So Alexander, I think he would disagree with this one. We have content and creative SEO and maximise the reach of each piece and deliver the message at the right time in real time. I love to live in real time, the right message the right content, the right creative

Alexander Janssens 58:45 as possible but I think it's like being organised. Like delivering a digital experience is gonna result in that content explosion. You need like you need 25 different sizes. We need to interview by segment or hundreds of audiences than they did in 20 markets. So that is just an explosion of content. And then to add to that complexity, you're meeting you need that content in all these different systems. So you need to meet your CMS in your in your ecommerce or social channels. So that just means you need to make sure that you're really organised because there's two challenges here on the one side, your design team is not going to be able to produce all this content. So you need content, like automated way of creating content and templating and on the second side once you've created all the content, you need to be able to organise that because once it's organised, then you can start to link it to downstream systems and start to distributed in the right size at the right time to all of these channels and it doesn't matter where and because the system automatically regenerate the organiser pollutants and then distributed but also help with creating more data, new variations for you basically have this engine that fuels all of these other systems. I think that's that's the key. Because if you really want to be able to maximise your return on investment of all you have your own that means that you first of all need to be organised I mean, like shared drives and folders are not going to cut it to organise your assets. You really neat a system, a system of records that's integrated that automates the distribution that repeats that serves it to the rights as automatic. And then from then onwards, it's when you go all in with automation but I think it starts with being nice

Carlos Doughty 1:00:57 that they're approachable intonation is really powerful without obviously butchering the importance of the creative in the original part. It's yeah thank you. And let's get back to you. What have you found in the way of the biggest challenges and those which require whether it's in this role or previous roles, what have you seen? A few themes just

Sapna Kandukuri 1:01:27 jumped out and I think the field of data has grown data new oil is missing, gold, all that sort of stuff and yet we are all crypto has been your crypto file just get into Oh, remarketing. You know, and we're all fans of challenges. Starting from scratch, I I can tell you we as a bank are about four months old and yet on still addressing things like accuracy issues. Is the data really, really accurate. How am I going to ensure that this data is real time and accurate? So I want to work up for a system where the business systems the business that collects the data and my marketing engine according to each other. And the data is being updated real time because I don't want to go in there into the business system and refresh my list every single time. I'm doing a campaign that's the second one. So accuracy of data, real time data. And the third one is about targeting the audiences. How segmented do I get? You're looking at businesses. UK is best SME. And that's the composition. That's great. But we've got property investors, Puppy shoved down the road. We've got a dentist we've got an accountant and lawyer. How segmented am I going to get and then we've got five products five times by segments 25 segments 25 types of content and then addressing their business needs. So the proactive what is the next thing we might need is present some of the challenges that I'm coming across, making and that that is about making content relevant and specific. Like Jay said, how specific do I get as of now? Yes, I know the savings products. They give very high rates of interest. We are talking to this by tables and all of that sort of stuff. Where does the money come from? It's coming from people who look at the same experience. They're not particularly stock investors. They're not crypto. They're not particularly young. You know, they are silver surfers. They are mature professionals. I know the reasons they come from, but that's okay. What else do I know about them? Again? And this borders on creepy. So the challenges of you know, being so detailed that you kind of start to do some that's not what I wanted to do that will have the generation thing when I talked to my 16 year old she says what do you think my information is on there on the internet and they're hoping to be so what's wrong? When I see a new website and I see a chatbot or how can we help? It just seems intrusive leave me alone. Let me browse. Let me feel what you're all about. And then I'll come back to questions. Why do you think how can we help how can we help with the opening? So it's a different I think it's a generational thing. And I think it's, you know, I don't know it could also be in a stage VRR areas etc. So I think I think some of the challenges is also challenging to many suppliers and as I mentioned in your courses, data suppliers and the good ones will establish themselves in the market are very, very expensive. And can the bank afford them know that there are really tiny banks I have to look and I have to dig deep to find out who the suppliers application will be a challenge on face later.

Carlos Doughty 1:05:54 Just a few minutes plenty right and let's pick up on on one of the points that she mentioned around accuracy of data and metrics. And so we had a question here about what metrics do you recommend to really drive your strategy and I think we'll assume the easy part is done that the analytics are accurate because obviously, that's the toughest part but let's talk about some of those that you think really mess things

Andrew Stephenson 1:06:35 up is a very difficult one to answer it depends on it. But I would say is you need a plan to do any event. Overall. You just use metrics to measure effectiveness by channel by a campaign. Quite a short sighted view of the world. And with this you get short sighted results, you know, you will optimise and have an incredible campaign or a channel but it will only be those kind of microtransactions in those specific moments with that consumer on a journey because that can lead to a bit of a disjointed experience where they have incredible session here. Customer service really that's more aligned to those objectives for another department. I think one example base is to channel managers right they're both they both work segment and they both have a quality driven KPI right you know sell as many products as possible, so that we can do this example. they'll both be talking the same person to get into buyers market take as many products as it possibly can. And the result is that customer will just get fed up. from the business perspective. Your contactable database shrinks and we've had a bad experience customers, they tell their friends it's a new bank reputation is a very big thing. And it starts to kind of unravel. So I think the solution is to start to look at longer term metrics and measurement to benefit both the customer and the business. So things like lifetime value development brand engagement, it's kind of longer term things, these shorter term goals and objectives, but ensure that they're connected and reflect well. Customer prospect but also with the business objectives. Something like that plan when the long term.

Carlos Doughty 1:08:24 Especially that lifetime value. If you if you don't really measure that you might be massively under spending because you're working off the one year revenue

Andrew Stephenson 1:08:36 for this lifetime value, brilliant. And again, as you're there, you don't have a lifetime yet to measure people. You might be going through this so yeah, I'd say yeah, at the moment. We're very much in position. Just around what is my product? How can I get this content? Understand what What content do they need? I think first

Carlos Doughty 1:09:07 it's up to you. And we've talked a lot about personalization. Let's say from you, what's your advice on person driving personalization at scale? Yeah, Alexander Janssens 1:09:18 I think Well, I think it's like the design team is the crucial part a crucial part of this, this whole strategy, right? Because you need to have the best designs to be able to go to market. However, we can't ask to design to create all of these personalizations we can ask them to create 100 different sizes. And a lot of companies are actually doing this, but that is a waste of resources. So what we do want to do is we want to free the designer to focus on creating really powerful content. But then we want to be able to leave it to the automation to be able to create all of those segmentations personalizations variations, resizing optimizations, versions, whether it be or Unknown Speaker 1:10:06 not with any

Alexander Janssens 1:10:09 of those things. We don't want to bother the designer with those kind of requests for the designer needs to focus on time. And technology needs to do the rest from organising to delivery. And I think, actually that full so I think it starts with templates to allow the teams to create content based on the design that has been designed by a designer, then being able to organise all of this in a dam and then be able to connect that to all these other systems so that you deliver the content in the right format automatically. And then basically you just use in maximise your return on investment. And also you're able to deliver that really personal, a digital experience, which is ultimately going to help you sell more products or drive more revenue, whatever your goal is as a business. And so I think that's, that's we should be able to focus on like, okay, the designer, we can use the designer, we can work with the designer to really focus on the design, and we should be able to scale it up when we do that as an organisation.

Carlos Doughty 1:11:19 Right and saying you want to do this very much from a sort of regional perspective. local language, for example, going back to that nice, lovely, fantastic template, and I've got an entire campaign. Yeah,

Alexander Janssens 1:11:33 it's funny because we work with a lot of companies, a lot of work in the marketing team. Also a lot of people from us who are used to one language and in one market force in Europe, markets, and like I live in Netherlands, Belgium is is completely different. It's also Dutch, but it has a different approach. They also have French by the way, and then you have Luxembourg and then we have in France and Germany and requires so many different variations and also still the human touch as well to make sure that it's it's, it's perfect. So again, we don't want to bother and we want to put this work at this. For the designer to do we want to enable the local marketers to create these variations himself.

Carlos Doughty 1:12:32 This one's a little bit similar. To some of what he was talking about. What do you measure the really most you have real polls Unknown Speaker 1:12:52 me and Frank and Frank. The banking industry has been the business might be how many people can become advocates. I think on a on a campaign level, it's about awareness and awareness, Proposition awareness within that particular segment that I'm targeting with that campaign.

Sapna Kandukuri 1:13:29 Measuring if it's social measuring impressions, you know, how the name is going down? Recommendations, you know, shares etc. And I often set up a lot of forms every single campaign has a CTA so that we can go in and fill in the required form recall and get somewhere and overall, I think it's, it's about getting leads in it's about growing the business. It's an exciting time for us. It's promoting it's, you know, how far has the main recognised gone but on the other hand, the our personal personal business, we've got relationship managers who are existing relationships that they're bringing in the business. So I can, in fact, sit back there and not get worried so much engagement each single time, as long as I'm focused on growing and that's where we are.

Carlos Doughty 1:14:25 So very exciting. Very exciting time for you to chat in another 12 months to see whether Unknown Speaker 1:14:30 next up. Absolutely.

Carlos Doughty 1:14:35 And we are all out of time for tonight. I do want to say a massive thank you this has been fascinating really, really great sessions, so many insights from all of you. So thank you so much for giving your time and being part of this. I also want to say a very big thank you to Trish later and Divina for sponsoring this and making it possible. It's always fantastic to have sponsors like them involved in this but also delivering such value. So please do support us by supporting them. And that's all from me today. But I also just want to let everybody know that first of July we are bringing this to life. We're doing the 3d thing we've got our in person major events running in London. We would love to see the lookout for emails from us. Quickly. We'll see you very much chat very soon. See at the next one