#MarTechFest Chats

Transcript

Carlos Doughty 0:26

Hi, welcome. I'm Carlos Doughty. I'm the founder of the MarTech Alliance. And we are here for a #MarTechFest Chat. And today I'm joined by none other than Tom Goodwin. He is the founder of all we have is now and former head of futures and insight at publicists. Hello, Tom. Welcome.

Tom Goodwin 0:45

Hello, guys. Thanks for having me on.

Carlos Doughty 0:47

Really great to have you. So first of all, we're going to make sure that we take any live questions. But in between that we've also had some fantastic questions in the build up. And obviously, we'd love to delve in and pick Tom's brain on a whole range of different topic areas. So I think probably, there's only one place we can really start, which is, what happened, what played out what played out recently with you leaving publicists.

Tom Goodwin 1:15

I mean,

Tom Goodwin 1:17

increasingly, over time, I've been a bit uncomfortable working in advertising. And I think quite a lot of the concerns I have about the world are kind of linked to, you know, world of algorithms and the world of a news environment, which is quite challenging. So slowly, I've been thinking that I would probably leave advertising and focus more on business problems, and some different types of anger, I guess, sort of building up inside me, which led to me always misbehaving a little bit misbehaving with good intentions. But I was always treading quite close to the line. And genuinely, I just got to the point where it wasn't really being that helpful for people at publicists, I was starting to cause quite a lot of problems with some people in their, their relationships with clients. And I'm not particularly happy about being unhelpful. And over time, you know, everything that's happened in this era of COVID, where I've been trying to preach sort of perspective and trying to ensure that people feel a degree of hope, that has been quite irritating to a lot of people. And that's caused quite a lot of people concern. So yeah, it kind of got to a point where we had a big Twitter exchange, which was a bit like a sort of pub argument. I mean, it's quite embarrassing to me that people actually cared about what happens on on Twitter when it's just two people who know each other. And, you know, having a bit of sort of playful banter, but for some reason that was judged to have been quite an extraordinary event. So for some reason, I got fired for that. But there's not really any hard feelings. I'm excited to launch my own thing. And it's a bit embarrassing, in a way to be honest, I thought, I thought I'd probably get fired for a tweet, which was actually something regretful or something that was quite mean spirited. But, but I did just seem to sort of suggest that we should be concerned about everyone who was dying, and not just people dying with one particular thing. And in the current environment where everyone's quite hysterical, and where people are very understandably anxious, then that was, that whole episode was considered quite a big deal for some reason.

Carlos Doughty 3:17

Well, I think there's not always that much kind of excitement in our industry. Right. So I suppose that's some level of excitement if you like, maybe it says more about the industry than about what played out.

Tom Goodwin 3:27

Yeah. Well, this is a bit like a sort of playground, scrap the the sort of university newspaper decided to pick up on because there was nothing else to write about. But I'm I left in circumstances, which I'm very happy about. I still have a lot of respect for all of my colleagues that work at Publicist at this, there's no hard feelings.

Carlos Doughty   3:45

Any regrets?

Tom Goodwin   3:47

No, no, no.

Carlos Doughty 3:50

So what's next? What's, I mean, I think one of the things I've got is, you've taught for a very long time that you'd love to build, you know, equity, your works fantastic. I find it really inspiring. There's those moments you read something and you go, Yeah, why is x like that? Why Why are we all bizarre with these things? But then what what are you going to bring to the party, I suppose what's gonna, what you're going to build to change that?

Tom Goodwin 4:13

That's kind of, I mean, it's quite easy for me to sound defensive of like, I'm trying to justify things but increasingly, I was uncomfortable with with feeling quite hypocritical, because, you know, I would travel around the world and speak on big stages and talk about the wonderful things that we could all do and how advertising should change. Now, we should be more ambitious and how we should start making things and, you know, starting companies, and I felt quite, so they were critical, really, so so now I'm looking forward to embarking on everything. So whether it's everything from doing stuff, which makes more of a difference through mentorship or training, whether it's investing sort of time and energy and start-ups, I've got a few physical products I'm looking to bring to market and even just doing things with my hands like it sounds a bit odd but I do have a degree in engineering and another degree in architecture. And I've always just wanted to actually physically make something I kind of, there's part of me that wishes I was literally a builder that sort of laid bricks and could look back on a day's work and see that I've constructed something. So I'm looking forward to lots of different things like that.

Carlos Doughty 5:19

And any books in the works?

Tom Goodwin 5:21

there is one I started writing, all about how we should rethink everything about life. Anyways, oddly, was based on this notion, you know, what happened if we all had a period of time to stop and think and forget many of the assumptions that we make about life. So assume that we need to retire you need to go to university to get a good job, assume that we need to live in a big house with a garden and as many bedrooms as there are children. And then people end up being constrained by those assumptions that people end up sticking with jobs, because, you know, they have to afford their mortgage, and so on. And so it was all based on what would happen if we really rethought all of those assumptions. And then just as COVID happened, I was getting really into it. And I realised that actually kind of COVID was this thing. And the book would probably either be written at the perfect time or completely the wrong time. And then I just got a bit distracted and started doing other stuff.

Carlos Doughty 6:21

sounds really interesting. Actually, it sounds it's probably bits from what's the book called? The code of the extraordinary mind.

Tom Goodwin 6:30

Yeah, I'm not a big book reader. Actually, I think I've written as many books as I've read almost. I kind of like it when people get to the point really quickly. So often in my life, it's quite embarrassing, because people say, Oh, it's a bit like that book. And immediately, I think I probably haven't read it.

Carlos Doughty 6:47

But actually, audio book. So it's a great book to be reading right now. So obviously, we chatted must have been a year and a half, maybe two years ago. Now, when you first released it. And in the build up for this, I had a quick reread of actually and it was, I mean, it was almost like, Did you did you see what was coming? I mean, there was some predictions in there, that, well, there's a couple of bits, like education is going to be completely transformed, we're going to see acceleration in change. So a lot of those things, but I think also, some, I think, for anybody that's really sort of tackling sort of digital transformation, cultural change, really trying to reimagine the world and rethink it, there's some there's some real gold in there to go over the top of, yeah, it's all

Tom Goodwin 7:28

everyone seems to think it's extraordinary that people are now shopping online. Like it's, it's really all the people, you know, there's this sense that somehow magically, we've been able to do our jobs from home, as if somehow we hadn't, you know, in many careers been taking our laptop home and working from home all day. But I don't think it's really that difficult to predicted that, you know, technology would wouldn't have these sort of core parts of our lives where it was, it would go into things. The hardest thing is figuring out the sort of second order sort of consequences of it. So we've known that ecommerce has been around for a long time. Why is no one invented a mechanism that allows delivery people to leave parcels in your home when you're not there? You know, why, in an age of grocery being delivered online, is there not a way to store things in refrigerated units outside? So it's odd to me how little imagination there seems to be in the world.

Carlos Doughty 8:21

Yeah, and I think, hopefully, there is some positive of of kind of this sort of mad environment, right, is that it does force people to have those conversations and make those bold changes. You talked a lot around sort of bravery and kind of, you know, the classic CEO that doesn't really wants to do anything that daring, they want to hit the golf course, earn good money, and not lose their job. And actually, in this environment, there is no choice, right? That the level of accelerated change that needs to happen is massive.

Tom Goodwin 8:51

Like that, because we've been very good at being in a very comfortable environment, but pretending it's uncomfortable, like we've been saying things like, you know, adapt, or die, or the average lifespan of a company is shortening or technology needs to transform everything. And it is, and that's not none of these things are really that true. Everyone's been very lazy for the last sort of 18 years. like everyone's been kind of hoping for the best. And that's fine. I think we are all lazy, and we're all risk averse. And, you know, people who want to retire and play golf are not bad people. And I say these things without any judgement at all. But But that is the reality that we face. And it's it's great to have. One of the things that's good about this environment is it creates a sense of urgency, and you now realise that many of those barriers, and many of those distractions are real, and hopefully now we can sort of smash through them quite quickly.

Carlos Doughty 9:42

Yeah, I mean, I think you said it there. It's the speed of change, right? I think McKinsey published that was in e commerce in the US there was an acceleration in three months, which represented the equivalent of 10 years prior. And it's that level of change but like you say, it's it's fascinating when you hear it About x brand and how did you not know the internet existed? at all? How did you not think at some point you were going to have to throw a couple of quid at having a website with ecommerce.

Tom Goodwin 10:10

It's very odd. I mean, people seem to love all the extravagant things there any chance to do a photo shoot with a drone, and any sort of, you know, demo project with a 3D printer. You know, from IB combs to the Internet of Things to NFC, like, even I was sort of AR and Google lens, you know, I saw this thing the other day would never yet where you can now use your phone to get like a packaging experience with a new type of Nivia sort of moisturising cream. And you just sort of wonder what people are doing. Because you know, Nivia is a great brand, and they sell great products. And this is a wonderful time to connect with consumers. And so one on one fashion and make it really easy to buy the same product again. So why can't you just snap a code on the packaging and just reorder the same product might use the packaging and get like a product that works well alongside it. So if you want the moisturising cream, get the, you know the beard oil or get the sort of hair gel or deodorant or something. But instead we we seem to really enjoy complication rather than simplification.

Carlos Doughty 11:13

And actually on that point, so do you see this is the year of the QR code? Right? It's going to make the comeback? Am I right in saying you'd played around with it? Probably Long, long ago was it with Nakia with somebody and it was a little bit too early or? Or outside Japan and Asia, it just didn't really hit but perhaps it's gonna bring qR to the forefront?

Tom Goodwin 11:35

Maybe I mean, I loved the days of advertising back then. Because you know, what would happen is we'd have a client with lots of money. And we have incredible amounts of trust between us. I read Wired magazine one day in like 2006 and heard about QR codes, and just sent to the art directors stick one of these on, I sort of figured out which part the website it should take people to and we just said to our client, should we try this? And they said yes, it didn't cost anything. And those were the days where you could just do things. Now if you wanted to do that, you'd have to sort of fill in a spreadsheet saying, you know, what's the what, what kind of what are we attributes? And how are we tracking? What's the current use of QR codes? I mean, obviously, no one clicked on it, other than me and a few people. But anything and you know, we got to sort of learn from it. And I think QR codes are one of those oddly sort of exciting technologies that people don't talk about for some reason. And, again, I think it's because there's not much money to be made in them. And it's because it seems a bit boring somehow to just have a kind of something that's black and white, that takes you to a website, we want something that sort of feels more tactile, something that feels more sort of extraordinary, somehow,

Carlos Doughty 12:41

something for the for the for the press release front, you're not going to get it for the QR code directly.

Carlos Doughty 12:46

But actually, it's interesting. I mean, just going sort of back in a pub now, here in the UK, and it's a really seamless experience. And it's like, you have to do it and you're doing it a lot. Why are we not using these more? Because it's just simple. It's really quick and simple. It's not typing out a website, because obviously, that's too much hard work. So the ability to just use it again, it'd be interesting. And what what else, what else? Sorry, just on that it'd be good to sort of dig a little bit deeper on that, I suppose. In this environment, what do you see sort of playing out what what might be unfolding in terms of whether it's new tech or new ways of kind of new ways of running our marketing? What what you see is there's actually going to be some noise, some nonsense and some stuff, which actually we should be paying a lot of attention to.

Tom Goodwin 13:30

Yeah, I mean, on something called the #MarTechFest Chats, it's a bit inappropriate to not talk about it really boring technology. But the reality is that we have a mobile phone, which is incredible. We have 4G or 4G LTE, which is incredible. And within our devices, we have gyroscopic sensors that know what angle the phone's been held, and whether we're close to other people we know. And as a camera that can scan QR codes. And even just within that one area, we have incredible things that we could do. And we could, we could go around getting coupons that if we send it to five people, we got more money off something that we bought, we could have a device that when you're on an e commerce site, and you rotate the phone, the pair of shoes that we're looking at, sort of animate and show us what the what the shoes look like from all directions. We could have sort of daily special offers based on where you are in the world and treasure hunts that could sort of make you you know, have fun in shopping miles. Like the opportunities within QR codes are extraordinary. Every single section add that you see a bus stop, you could scan a QR code. And if it's an ad for Airbnb, I could tell you, we can break for that weekend, you know, an hour's drive away from that location. Every single pair of jeans we buy could have a QR code that allows us to reorder this exact same pair of jeans with one click evolve bone. So I honestly think that while there are really exciting things like NFC has potential and AI can do a lot. I think we're wrong to assume that everything that exciting has to involve an exciting new form of technology, I think it'd be better to just work with what we have already.

Carlos Doughty 15:14

Yet, it also takes some time for us to work out how to use technology correctly, right. So anything new, maybe new and interesting, but not necessarily see the value of it for some time,

Tom Goodwin 15:26

We also need to get much better thinking about people. And I know I sort of go on about this, but we tend to have meetings, which are, you know, here's a big CPG company, or FMCG, and they want to invest, you know, 100 grand on new technology. And then you sort of meet a company that does amazing things with an image recognition and projection mapping. And then quite quickly, you're like, you know, how do we help projection mapping, create an experience around a new ice cream launch? And all of a sudden, you've sort of created this really complicated experience that is amazing, but no one in their right mind would ever do. And if it was actually, you know, find a way to show me the nearest shop that sells these ice creams or find me a way to collect the whole set of ice creams it like really exciting things. I do remember McDonald's did some sort of weird, like lottery thing where you could win millions based on monopoly.

Carlos Doughty 16:21

Yeah, it was a scam. That wasn't the whole play. It was a scam.

Tom Goodwin 16:25

Yeah. It's not a great. It's not the perfect implementation. But I remember when I was young eating burgers all day long, because I was trying to win lots of money. And like, what would happen to simple things that involved a bit of technology like that?

Carlos Doughty 16:40

Yeah, yeah, definitely. It's, um, it's get a little bit too carried away with with kind of some of that tech. Well, I'm saying that for someone that used to have a job title futurist.

Tom Goodwin 16:52

I really like that side. So I think I think it was head of futures with Yeah, which is just kind of I was mainly looking at how the world is changing. So it was less about projecting onto the future. Now, figuring out, you know, like, again, people do these things called Silicon Valley safaris, where they go to San Jose, and they meet Pinterest, and they meet Facebook and they make LinkedIn and they meet Instagram, and maybe they're lucky enough to meet Apple. And then the idea is they've been seeing the future, you know, because they've met all these tech companies. You know, two things. One, if you want to see the future going to just Shenzhen, you know, walk around a shopping mall in Shenzhen and get help teenage girls are behaving and how they're buying sort of clothes, we'll go to Tel Aviv or go to Bucharest, or go to Kigali or something like that it Kinshasa. And to is actually much more interesting to do is Safari where you go to like Hull, or Scunthorpe, or, you know, walk me or something and you just

Carlos Doughty 17:52

Got to get Slough in there.

Tom Goodwin 17:54

I mean, Slough is the dream. And look around, you look at what's changed. And you sort of see you know, stores that have got, you know, native deodorant in a boots in Slough now, and you'll see that this is a coupon machine entering Tesco, and there's a Queenstown machine in there, and Aldi is still doing the middle aisle. And by looking around and realising what's the same, what's different, it's actually that sort of in depth kind of look. And that kind of gives you a much greater sort of pulse, really go to bookshop and see all the books that are on display, because they're often about sort of societal trends. And those, those are the things that we need to do really.

Carlos Doughty 18:34

Great. And I'm flipping lanes for a moment. And this is a question for me. So I really wanted to touch on this. So obviously, your style is quite provocative and encourages good debate. But there can be a point when it goes the other way, right. And there could be a point where you go, is that being provocative? Or is that simply trolling? So someone puts out a post? And you remind them that it's a short post, somebody is not necessarily as confident as as well carried as as good at marketing, perhaps. And they feel particularly dejected? Because it's quite public, it's on social media. How do you sort of balance that? And where do you sort of fold in terms of other moments where you go? Actually, maybe on that one? I shouldn't. It wasn't right to comment on that one. I should have passed on that one.

Tom Goodwin 19:20

Yeah, I think, um, my hope, and I fall short of this sometimes, but my hope is that what I post is constructive in some kind of way. So if someone's saying look at this incredible, you know, 3D printer experience in Home Depot, like I would hope that I don't say things like, Oh, that's, you know, you idiot for posting this. That's only one branch. I might say something like, Oh, you know, I'm not entirely sure why they do that. Like, what possible benefit is there to a service like that and Home Depot, and, you know, one is sort of eating into someone else's reputation and it's sort of making fun of them as a person. The other is sort of negatively, or sort of having a sort of progressive conversation towards what the technology means. I think I think most of the time, I've behaved in a way where I can look back on things and be happy with them. I think in this current environment where we're not really able to express ourselves so much in person, and where there is a degree of anxiety and frustration in the world, I think there are times where, you know, I've maybe gone the wrong way. And I'm, you know, there are quite a lot of posts that I delete, because I've suddenly realised that actually, you know, it's not really done in this little spirit of proper conversation, it's just me being a bit of a dick. That's the weird thing. I mean, that all these sites have been sort of programmed so much around, sort of basic human sort of carnal desires, that that somehow there is a temptation, I think, within all of these platforms to just be sort of quite mean to each other somehow. And hopefully, I don't often and hopefully, I'll delete it quite quickly.

Carlos Doughty 21:01

Yeah, I mean, I think it's, it's always a balancing act, right. And something very positive comes from challenge and from debate and from chatting with each other. And, um, I think the difficulty, especially in a social environment, is it's difficult to gauge somebody, right? It's difficult to know, how will somebody feel and take this? Because it might just be a point of debate, it may just be an opinion. And if somebody isn't, as quick, fast, confident, happy debating, do they sort of remove themselves a little bit and just decide? I don't feel comfortable enough to reply. So I won't say anything. And actually, yeah, which kind of leads me to something else I'd love to sort of ask you more about which is, clearly you're somebody that's very comfortable, very confident, and comfortable of conflict. Where's that kind of evolved from? And I suppose for anybody that doesn't carry themselves quite in that same way? What would your advice be for, for helping them so that if there is a comment and your comment stuff wrong? It's just a debate? I don't feel I won't reply to that. I will reply to that, because this is good. This is good. It's healthy conversation. How would you sort of help others kind of build their confidence or, or think more about debating and, and being comfortable that conflict?

Tom Goodwin 22:14

I think in a way, it may come down to one quite simple thing, maybe. And that's just to unbundle feelings from opinions in a way. I mean, I think, you know, the reality is that the internet is a very unusual place. And it's still seemed quite contradictory to what I was saying before, but it's sufficiently new when it comes to human nature, that we don't really know what the etiquette is. And we don't really know what the rules of engagement are. And I think somehow, within a place like this, it's almost understood, that is going to be sort of rabid, and frenzied, and hysterical, and a bit insane. And that's why I've decided to come off in recent times, just because it didn't seem like a very progressive way to have conversations. And it seems so emotional. I think LinkedIn is a bit different. I think it's a bit more moderate, because people have their professional reputations attached to their profiles. But even then, we don't quite know, you know, what does sarcasm look like? You know, how can in a physical environment, if there's someone that hasn't said much in the meeting, and then they sort of clear their throat and stand up and stoop down a bit and then say something quite meekly, we sort of know that it's appropriate to be really supportive of the fact that someone finally dead suggests something. But we don't really get any of that context on the Internet at all. And these things then get shared. And they get removed from that context even further. So we haven't really figured out how to behave with it yet. So I think probably people need to default to assuming that people have better intentions, before you need to default to politeness. But at the same time, I do think that we can have really robust debate without people taking it personally. So if I do a poll thing, you know, I think blockchain is a complete waste of time. I can't think of any good examples that come from it. If someone then from the Estonian government says, Well, what about our, you know, blockchain based system that allows better health treatment and keeps identity secure, and allows people to do voting you idiot? I'm probably I'm probably not going to dwell on the idiot part of it. I'm probably gonna realise how wonderful it is that I've been corrected and how wonderful it is. I've learned something from that process. But I think I'm quite unusual in my ability to sort of untangle opinions from the person.

Carlos Doughty 24:33

I agree. And I think it's, I think it's something that a lot of people strive for, because it is, I think, speaking about it simply, I think most people would recognise it's healthy, to be more resilient, to be challenged to be wrong sometimes to have been wrong. And just there's nothing wrong with that. It's okay. You can be wrong in this. You've just had a conversation debate, you've learned something new. I think it's a it's a mind shift, right. And it's often it's shaped very early on in terms of how Comfortable we do or don't feel?

Tom Goodwin 25:02

Yeah, remember these, these places are sort of invite in places like no one has a sort of human rights, express themselves on LinkedIn and have people tell them how wonderful they are for doing so. Okay, it sounds a little bit harsh, but I think somehow we do need to sort of toughen up a little bit and just realise that, you know, robust debate and debate is rooted in evidence and expertise, either from other people or from yourself. You know, it's okay for it to be challenging. We do live in an era where we have some quite significant, complex discussions that are only ever really gonna advance if we have quite difficult conversations about them. So whether it's climate change, or diversity issues, or COVID, like we can either decide that that's too precious to discuss, and we can decide not to talk about that. Or we can have superficial conversations which don't get to the heart of issues, because we're too worried to talk about the notion that everyone dies eventually, or, you know, to look at the historical context of some of these issues. And so we can either have quite gentle but but very superficial conversation, and we can really go out there. And I'd like to think that people make somewhat of a decision about how deep to engage based on the types of questions and answers that they give.

Carlos Doughty 26:20

Definitely, and I think I'm the only other side of that, I suppose you could end up in echo chambers as well, right, is that you just end up with a bunch of people that think exactly the same way, and are literally insulated from other opinions. Now, this is I suppose some of the some of the positive? And what could be the challenge of social today as well, right? Because, yes, it certainly can create positive and negative echo chambers. But also, there comes a point as well, where there are times where you go, that feels like quite a toxic conversation, or toxic feed that I don't want to be associated with. So the balance between what's toxic versus I need to be challenged, I need fresh information and fresh perspective to make sure that my thinking isn't too isolated.

Tom Goodwin 27:05

Yeah, I mean, I'm, I was interested for you to say that you've got my book was still sort of relevant and seemed quite apt for this moment. Because the one part of it, which I maintained to definitely be correct is this idea of the the mid digital age where we haven't really made sense of this stuff yet. And we don't really know what behaviours are okay. And I think the reality is, we don't quite know how we should behave on these places. And I come to these things, and I'm probably wrong, but I think that these are good places to have difficult conversations. And difficult conversations have quite judgmental phrases like playing devil's advocate or being a troll, or being a clickbait contrarian. And actually, I don't think that's particularly fair. I mean, I despise Trump, I think he's one of the worst human beings on the planet, I naturally sort of centre left. But it's not unhelpful for me to read a post saying, Here are five brilliant things Trump has done, and that we should be thankful. Like, that's, that's not an unhelpful thing for someone like me to read. It's not unhelpful for me to read a sort of blog post from someone who sees health care in America as a wonderful system that everyone should try to replicate. Because I can only really and further my knowledge by by reading, sort of dissenting viewpoints, and people who see the world differently, but but for some reason, especially at the moment, we think, to sort of take that as being offensive, like we find facts as being quite offensive. And I think maybe we just need to sort of calm down a bit and, you know, sort of harden ourselves up a little bit and be more prepared for debates, which make us think, you know, if we're uncomfortable in a situation, whether it's going to the gym, and you know, being out of breath, or whether it's walking up a mountain that's extremely steep, like normally good things happen when we do difficult things. So if a conversation is really challenging, and if we really have to think and if someone completely challenges our worldview, and if we're entirely wrong. That's a great day, as far as I'm concerned. I understand that people see it differently. And they think it's dangerous if people try to empathise with the enemy and stuff, but that's not how I see things.

Carlos Doughty 29:15

No, I completely appreciate your perspective. And it makes a lot of sense. And let's flip lanes one more time. And I'll throw one last question at you. career advice, especially in this environment right now, the world changing, working world changing education changing for somebody? actually two parts this will be great. So one is for somebody entering as a marketer or a technologist right now, what advice would you give them? And then exactly the same question for somebody that's 10 years deep in the game.

Tom Goodwin 29:48

I think it's the same advice today. I mean, um,

Tom Goodwin 29:52

forgive me for sort of sounding this could sound to be arrogant at times. But um, you know, in our industry, we are Basically, in the business of knowing stuff in thinking in using our imagination, you know, we are very lucky to not work in our car parts factory or chicken gutting. So our value comes from how we think in our brains. And therefore, it is useful to conceive of us as being athletes really. And some of us are quite specialised. So some of us might be Javelin throwers, and some of us might be football players. And some of us might be decathletes with the more sort of general generalist sort of approach. And, you know, the success that we have will come from the ability that we have to read and think and to digest information. And we should all be spending as long as we possibly can be reading and curiosity is the sort of energy that drives any successful career forward in my personal opinion. So it doesn't matter what stage of your career is, you need to think that your primary job is to be working out in the gym all day long. But your primary job is to be getting your brain as fit as it possibly can be. and nurture relationships with people who are interesting to find people who write interesting books and follow them on the internet. It's primarily a sort of investment in our general health. And then the job is just the bit that happens quite efficiently and quickly, because you have all of these muscles, which are sort of well developed. But I think if you focus on yourself and your mental capacity and your nurturing your curiosity, then actually everything becomes quite simple. So you will future proof your career by being able to change as the world changes, you will future proof your career by knowing relationships, by having relationships in useful places, as your career goes on. And hopefully, you'll have confidence, you'll have a reputation that people trust you and people, you know, include you within their plans as things change. So it sounds a little bit faster and simplistic, but I really think that our primary job is to just be able to do everything that's required of us quite quickly. And whether it's an interview, whether it's a case study that needs to be written, whether it's a campaign to be developed, whether it's a deck on interesting technologies, all of these things become things which you basically render out in a couple of seconds.

Carlos Doughty 32:16

Fantastic, Tom, really, really appreciate that sound advice fair. It's been a pleasure chatting with you today. Really appreciate your time and catch up very soon. Thank you so much.

Tom Goodwin 32:26

My pleasure. Thanks, Carlos. It's been great.

Carlos Doughty 32:28

Thanks, everyone for joining

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